Darkness Into Light – Suicide in Ireland – The True Picture.

 

Contrary to what amounts to a cynical propaganda attempt by MHRI (Men’s Human Rights Ireland) to portray the issue of suicide in Ireland, and in particular male suicide as a health and social issue that is and has been swept under the carpet in Ireland – the exact reverse is the true picture – this is an issue that does receive attention – by qualified professionals – in particular Dr. Joan Freeman of Pieta House among many many others.

In fact MHRI takes some swipes at Pieta House – a free service in the business of offering help and support to those who are suicidal – because Pieta House doesn’t engage in rhetorical battles with feminists – they support, counsel and help suicidal persons to reach a place where taking your life becomes less of a viable option – MHRI also fails to mention that when one is receiving counselling (as I have) the contents of what you say is CONFIDENTIAL. As are the sessions offered by the many other suicide prevention services available in Ireland – whom they also fail to mention or give credit to, no doubt also expecting those service providers to also reveal the CONFIDENTIAL substance of these counselling sessions so that MHRI can reveal these sometimes painful sessions to the entire world in order to take pot shots at feminists. Nice.

Nor does MHRI even consider for one moment acknowledging or giving credit to the hundreds if not thousands of people who dedicate themselves selflessly, many on a voluntary basis to provide these services – to be a voice at the end of a phone willing to listen for as long as it takes to a human being in pain, for no other reason than to – be there – listening.

 

“About Pieta House

Pieta House, the centre for the prevention of self-harm or suicide, opened its doors in Lucan in January 2006. Since then, six centres of excellence have followed suit in Ballyfermot, Mungret, Roscrea, Tuam, Bishopstown and most recently Castleisland while we also have an outreach centre in Finglas.

Our founder, Joan Freeman, was a practicing psychologist. She closed down her counselling business almost a decade ago to dedicate her time to helping people who were suicidal. After three years of research, she opened up Pieta House in Lucan, County Dublin. It quickly became a respected and recognised service for those who were in suicidal distress.

With her long experience of counselling people who were self-harming, Joan knew this taboo subject was little discussed and rarely understood. She decided that Pieta House would also help people with this distressing issue.

Pieta House now has a staff of 170 and the demand for our services hasn’t let up. In 2013, nearly 4,000 people came to Pieta House for help and the numbers contacting us are rising all the time.

We’re passionate about our work. As 90% of our income comes from fundraising events, we rely heavily on the support and encouragement of our volunteers and the friends of Pieta.”

In fact AVfM did a feature on Dr. Freeman, at the launch of a campaign specifically addressing the issue of male suicide – the Mind Our Men campaign – launched in early 2013. I have searched through practically everything published on AVfM from November 2012 – October 2013 and cannot locate the video of the news programme featuring Dr. Joan Freeman that was published on AVfM to link too, at this point you can either take my word for it or not – the lack of this link does not negate the substance of and validity of the information I have incorporated into this article which shows that the picture presented by MHRI about suicide in Ireland and how it is addressed is patently false. Please see this link to illustrate not only the work that Dr. Joan Freeman is doing, but how the mainstream media, in the form of our national TV station covers this issue sensitively and seriously.

Not only is the issue of male suicide being addressed, but these dedicated and qualified people have been working in Ireland as you saw above, since 2006 – for eight years – and began this work at a time when suicide was not something you talked about – Dr. Joan Freeman and her colleagues changed that – so to have MHRI swoop in with their Save Our Sons campaign – and insinuate that until now this issue was being ignored is beyond cynical, beyond calculated, and smacks of a propaganda campaign to propel a less than savoury agenda – now who does that remind me of I wonder?

In fact there is another campaign being run, also under the auspices of Pieta House – it is called Darkness into Light which is in its sixth year.

“Speaking at the launch in The Little Museum of Dublin, Joan Freeman, CEO and founder of Pieta House said: “Darkness into Light is an incredible experience and one that people remember for a long, long time. There’s already huge anticipation and with so many new locations involved for 2014 it’s going from strength to strength. We’re tying this year’s event in with our Mind Our Men campaign that aims to reduce male suicide in Ireland, so I want to ask everyone to bring a male friend or family member with them. We’re making a big push this year to get all the men out – it means an early rise but they won’t regret it.”

Darkness Into Light 2013 attracted 40,000 participants in 20 locations around Ireland. With this year’s event taking place in 39 locations, Pieta House is hoping for a near doubling of last year’s turnout.”

Not only that but this year’s event, which takes place on 10th May 2014 will be an international event

London and Sydney will host Darkness Into Light events this year as Pieta House’s flagship fundraiser held in association with Electric Ireland goes international for the first time.”

I have a relatively simple philosophy – I believe in Human Rights – and the only qualification to be vested with Human Rights is to be a Human Being.

Right now all over this planet, men’s human rights are being violated – men are suffering, men and boys are being marginalised, abused, disenfranchised and literally throw onto the rubbish heap of humanity as disposable, as detritus, as worth less than a used tissue.

Anyone who is prepared to stand up and recognise this, and work for and on behalf of men and boys – gets MY vote – anyone who has dedicated themselves unselfishly to work for the betterment of men and boys deserves not just the credit for this, but our support, our recognition and our thanks.

One of those people is Dr. Joan Freeman and her 170 volunteers and colleagues who have spent nigh on 10 years in Ireland changing the public’s perception of not just the issue of suicide in Ireland but of male suicide in Ireland and of raising awareness of this issue.

What MHRI has done – and is doing with this Save Our Sons campaign, in my opinion –is an insult, a calculated cynical insult to all those dedicated people – it is a slap in the face to people who have already “done the groundwork” and it is attempt to use a sensitive and painful issue like suicide to portray themselves as the cavalry charging in to the rescue – that until MHRI came on the scene – nothing was being done – had they thrown their support behind either Pieta House, the Mind Our Men campaign, or the Darkness into Light campaign or even had the fucking decency to mention them – I might not be writing this article now.

But they didn’t – did they – in fact their inaugural article on this subject was so misrepresentative, so completely false that I did take them to task on this blog – and overnight – the article changed – all of a sudden there was a grudging mention of Pieta House.

I took a look at the MHRI site and NONE of the above mentioned campaigns gets a mention – NOT ONE – in favour of peddling a misrepresented picture of how suicide, in particular male suicide is addressed and treated in Ireland.

I don’t personally give a rat’s arse if they call themselves Men’s Rights Activists or not –I’ve been “advised” that any dissension “within the ranks” of the MHRM, either worldwide or here in Ireland would “be bad for Men’s Human Rights in Ireland. That we need to show a “united front”

Really? Is that so? Again, what does that remind me of? What other “movement” “closes ranks” and protects its arseholes, or its most vicious and frankly disturbed members – because – the movement must be protected, at all costs?

I’ll give you a clue – it begins with the letter “F”.

Well fuck that – I don’t give a flying rat’s arse how “high profile” how “influential” or how many “followers” or “high profile supporters” you have – who backs you or doesn’t back you. If you are a wanker, an arsehole, or if you play by the same rulebook that feminists do then – fuck you – you are full of shit, and I have zero tolerance for bullshit, whether it emanates from feminists or MRA/MHRA’s.

THAT’S what will be “bad for Men’s Human Rights in Ireland and worldwide – turning a blind eye to blatant bullshit and misinformation.

And this “campaign” that MHRI is running is bullshit – its putative leader John Gormley is full of shit – yeah you were wondering when I’d get to him. I did contemplate just “letting this go” on the basis that “they can do their thing and I’ll do mine” but – the Men’s Human Rights Movement has enough external enemies working to discredit it, working to find even the slightest little flaw or mistake to pounce on and use to discredit the entire movement – to allow this bullshit to go unchallenged would be to give tacit approval to the same underhanded techniques and sleazy tactics that the feminists use.

I would rather raise the ire and probably hatred of my fellow MHRA’s and be branded a “traitor” or whatever other choice term will now be hurled at me that just stand by silently while this shit is peddled in the name of the MHRM. Wouldn’t be the first time that a supposed fellow MRA has vented his spleen at and about me.

I read that stupid article on AVfM the “boo hoo facebook banned me again” and then the litany of whines about how facebook has been “picking on” poor John!

My first reaction? – big fucking deal – facebook banned you, though I did note you didn’t actually present any evidence of that – nor did you present any evidence of all these “threats” you had received – again – who the fuck does that remind me of?

What I read – was an egotistical, self aggrandising  UNQUALIFIED arsehole trying to portray himself as a valiant messiah bravely battling the forces of evil – all by his little lonesome.

But the most cynical if not downright ironic aspect of this putative messiah’s self aggrandising “mission” is this – he states that:

“We are hitting the streets again shortly more than likely next weekend (supposed to be this weekend but we had to change it at last minute)”

Right above a huge graphic of this cynical Save Our Sons campaign launched by MHRI – without any irony or for that matter acknowledgment of what is taking place the following weekend, not just in Ireland, but in Sydney Australia, and London England.

“On 10th May 2014 will be an international event

London and Sydney will host Darkness Into Light events this year as Pieta House’s flagship fundraiser held in association with Electric Ireland goes international for the first time.”

Nor did AVfM check its own back catalogue that shows an article/video lauding the efforts of Dr. Joan Freeman when she launched the Mind Our Men campaign in Ireland last year, in favour of giving an arsehole the attention, the platform for his own personal little ego trip

You simply took the word of a self aggrandising idiot portraying himself as the new messiah of Men’s Human Rights in Ireland – and on the back of probably the most emotive subject there is – men taking their own lives – in a country that doesn’t give a shit about them – and didn’t, till MHRI came along to save the day. Except on THIS subject – that is a lie.

There are huge Men’s Rights issues in Ireland, and it is those issues that drive these men to take their lives – but is untrue and patently false to claim that “no-one cares” they may not fully understand the dynamics of social/legal and cultural forces that drive these men to do this – but they bloody care – and have been caring for a long time, and working to address and support these men – MHRI has done these dedicated men and women a huge disservice – and what they are engaged in is nothing short of propaganda.

That’s what I saw – that’s what I see – will a shitload of both Irish and non Irish MRA’s including no doubt all the members of MHRI (whoever they are) plus a few more seriously disturbed nutjobs – one of whom was recently banned from AVfM, now launch a big hate campaign against me? Probably.

Do I care? Nope – bring it on. Because unlike MHRI – I don’t subscribe to the view that the end justifies the means – nor do I subscribe to the view that “well misrepresenting facts, disseminating false data or false perceptions works for feminism – so it will work for us”

Do you know what makes Men’s Human Rights Activists different from feminists, what sets the Men’s Human Rights Movement apart from feminism?

We tell the truth, the plain unvarnished truth, we don’t dress it up, we don’t tell half the truth, and cross our fingers on the other half, we don’t present a “version” of the truth” if it suits our purpose

We don’t lie by commission or omission, or fail to show ALL aspects, ALL data, ALL current information in case it diffuses the power or impact of what it is we want to convey.

We tell the truth – even if it shows us in a bad light – we don’t hide behind fudged statistics, manipulated data, we don’t create and manufacture false perceptions – we’re NOT fucking feminists.

We tell the truth.

I want no part, no association with MHRI – I publically condemn them, I publically call bullshit. You want to do some good? You want to advance Men’s Human Rights in Ireland?

Clean up your fucking act!

You want Men’s Human Rights abuses to be taken seriously, not just at a social and cultural level but at a political level, both in Ireland and in the wider world?

Clean up your fucking act!

And have the fucking decency to acknowledge and give due respect to people who have been working their arse’s off FOR Irish men and boys – before you lot were out of short pants and getting your feelings hurt by facebook. Not just in relation to this most sensitive of subjects but all Men’s Rights issues in Ireland – quietly, behind the scenes, for years, with no support, no acknowledgement, and no need to go onto the premier Men’s rights site and whine about getting banned from facebook.

I’ve been told that writing this article and posting it will “damage the MHRM” and my response is this:

Do you think for one minute that the 40,000 people who supported Pieta House’s THREE campaigns last year, or the over 170 people who have worked on a mostly voluntary basis for the last 8 – 10 years – along with the hundreds if not thousands of people who have benefitted from the services provided for FREE by Pieta House DESERVE to be shit all over by arseholes like John Gormley and MHRI – that they DESERVE to be bullshitted out of existence, and have those bullshitters PROTECTED – because it’s bad for the MHRM? People who literally in some cases owe their lives to those dedicated people who work for Pieta House? are to be dismissed and those who did support and help them dismissed?

“Peter, who lost his 16-year-old son Simon to suicide in 2003, went on to set up support organisation SOSAD (Save Our Sons And Daughters).

He says: “I think the reason men are more likely to die by suicide has more to do with the thoughts, such as the ones I had.”

I don’t support liars, I don’t shield bullshitters and I don’t stand by and allow anyone – feminist or MRA to dismiss and misrepresent or ignore the work of people who have dedicated themselves, worked tirelessly and selflessly for the benefit of others including Irish men and boys for years, because it doesn’t suit the agenda of the “movers and shakers” in the fucking MHRM.

I’m NOT a feminist – never have been, never will be – so no I won’t “close ranks” I won’t “turn a blind eye” we either fight this battle with honour, with integrity and with truth or we might as well join the feminist movement – we clean house – we stand by principles NOT personalities – or we give up.

We acknowledge and give credit to those who have worked and are working, who have dedicated and are dedicating themselves in particular to this most sensitive and emotive of all issues – and we do NOT send out a message to men and boys that there is no hope, that no-one cares, that that there is no help, no support, and leave them in more despair than before they logged onto a supposed men’s rights site – to be told this – that until MHRI came there was and is nothing – this is unacceptable – it is cynical and it is bullshit – peddled to portray MHRI as the only source of help – THAT is a lie.

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24 Comments (+add yours?)

  1. Russell
    Apr 29, 2014 @ 00:25:12

    I sometimes do feel that the Truth exists in a type of Platonic world irrespective of the corruption in this world. God bless Anja.

    Reply

  2. Daniel Murray
    Apr 29, 2014 @ 00:28:13

    You and MHRI are a disgrace, ego driven assholes. But I suppose that helps you fit in with AVFM. Are you still taking legal action against that mangina Ronan? between you him and the bullshit intervention in Ireland by AVFM you have done massive damage to men’s rights in Ireland.

    This isn’t about you and your self centred “hobby”. Please stop your destructive BS and let people who actually care about human rights and the lack of them for men to people who actually see beyond the tips of their own noses, you, XXX and XXXXX (names redacted by blog owner) are a disgrace.

    Reply

    • anjaeriud
      Apr 29, 2014 @ 10:28:46

      Threatend to kill any feminists lately Daniel or invited people to “would someone just kill this c**t or do I have to do it myself”

      The two names I redacted? One is a member of MHRI and is a committed Men’s rights activist who has done more postive work on behalf of Men’s rights in Ireland that you – the other redacted named person is also a committed and dedicated Mens Rights activist who I personally respect for the effort and time he puts in on behalf of Men’s rights – I might not agree with them – but I have no problem acknowledging the good work that they DO – you might not respect their privacy – which they are entitled to – but I fucking do.

      As for your little side swipe at AVfM (A Voice for Men) – without AVfM – Men’s Human Rights issues wouldn’t even be on the radar – without Paul Elam, and all the other contributors and commenters, supporters and the hundreds if not thousands of people associated WITH AVfM – the Men’s Human rights Movement would exist on the outer fringes of the internet – MRA’s would be the pariahs that pariahs wouldn’t associate with.

      In the space of a relatively short time AVfM has literally forced the issues of Men’s Human rights Abuses into the consciousness of more people who would not have otherwise been aware that there WERE legitimate issues, and would still be reacting with a shrug and “mens rights? Big deal”

      Do I personally agree with every single word posted or published on AVfM? Nope. But, guess what Daniel – THAT’S “normal” thats what grown ups do – they either agree or disagree – then they move on – do they threaten to kill those who disagree with them? Nope. Do they in their fevered rantings throw the mother of all tantrums because someone doesnt think the same way as them? Nope.

      Do they – out of spite and malice reveal the identies of people who wish to protect their privacy for whatever reason, and are entitled to, because for whatever reason they have pissed some obnoxious little twerp off? Nope.

      By the way Daniel, you are getting one more shot – to – take one more shot – then you can fuck off – and spew your vitriol, spite and malice on your own bloody facebook page – as I am absolutely sure you will.

      Go for it.

      Kind Regards

      Anne

      Reply

  3. Daniel Murray
    Apr 29, 2014 @ 00:34:59

    I see you are using moderation to avoid criticism, just like the feminists. You are a disgrace!

    Reply

    • anjaeriud
      Apr 29, 2014 @ 10:31:35

      Actually, I have no idea why your “comments” went into moderation – as you see if you check – any other comment you have posted is still here – so no – criticise away – now that I have approved your “comments” any other ones you make shouldnt go into moderation – if they do – I have no idea how to correct that.

      Perhaps someone with more tech knowledge than me could give me a clue?

      Reply

      • Daniel Murray
        Apr 29, 2014 @ 17:52:16

        you hypocrisy is boundless…. and re respecting privacy, you go for the personal and RXXX took a comment of another MRA’s personal page and posted it out of context to demonize him. He had no respect for that persons privacy and alienated the group, which you yourself are laying in on now!

        He informed me you are threatening legal action over your articles on his MHRI page and this article is an attack on him and his group!

        You weren’t allowed work with MHRI as you refused to work with other groups.

        I used to support you and had tried to do a patch up job with various parties.

        Also going to this silly extreme “Do I personally agree with every single word posted or published on AVfM? Nope. But, guess what Daniel – THAT’S “normal” thats what grown ups do – they either agree or disagree – then they move on ” AVFM don’t do this though, they go through anyone who makes the slightest criticism of an article for a short cut, so you are speaking out your arse! AVFM don’t agree or disagree then move on, they throw a hissy fit and attack the person making the criticism.

        …. and Paul, someone who I do still have regard for, did say men in abusive relationships should beat their abusers!

        You lay in on MHRI, “I want no part, no association with MHRI – I publically condemn them, I publically call bullshit. You want to do some good? You want to advance Men’s Human Rights in Ireland?

        Clean up your fucking act!

        You want Men’s Human Rights abuses to be taken seriously, not just at a social and cultural level but at a political level, both in Ireland and in the wider world?

        Clean up your fucking act!”

        then you say to me “By the way Daniel, you are getting one more shot – to – take one more shot – then you can fuck off – and spew your vitriol, spite and malice on your own bloody facebook page – as I am absolutely sure you will.”

        You are deluded and completely lacking in self awareness…. you bitch about MHRI on your feed then try and make out I am the sort of character who will do the same and critisize me for it! That is utter blind hypocrisy!

      • anjaeriud
        Apr 29, 2014 @ 18:41:32

        you hypocrisy is boundless…. and re respecting privacy, you go for the personal and RXXX took a comment of another MRA’s personal page and posted it out of context to demonize him. He had no respect for that persons privacy and alienated the group, which you yourself are laying in on now!

        I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here – if you have some issue with RXXX, then you need to take it up with him, or whatever “group” you are talking about.

        He informed me you are threatening legal action over your articles on his MHRI page and this article is an attack on him and his group!

        He and you are misinformed. There is no “legal action” pending or otherwise. This article is a criticism of the treatment of a specific subject – suicide.

        You weren’t allowed work with MHRI as you refused to work with other groups.

        I resigned from MHRI before it was launched.

        I used to support you and had tried to do a patch up job with various parties.

        Must be why you sent me that stream of abusive emails then – and you were politely told by another member of MHRI that your services were no longer required. Again, have absolutely no idea what you are talking about “patch up job with other parties”????? Well whoever these “other parties” were or are I was certainly not one of them.

        Also going to this silly extreme “Do I personally agree with every single word posted or published on AVfM? Nope. But, guess what Daniel – THAT’S “normal” thats what grown ups do – they either agree or disagree – then they move on ” AVFM don’t do this though, they go through anyone who makes the slightest criticism of an article for a short cut, so you are speaking out your arse! AVFM don’t agree or disagree then move on, they throw a hissy fit and attack the person making the criticism.

        I suggest that if you have a problem with AVfM that you take it up with them – or whoever on AVfM you have an “issue” with – this isn’t AVfM – or have you wandered onto the wrong site by mistake?

        …. and Paul, someone who I do still have regard for, did say men in abusive relationships should beat their abusers!

        I personally do not recall EVER seeing Paul Elam either say this or suggest this – I suggest you retract this statement immediately or provide proof of its veracity.

        You lay in on MHRI, “I want no part, no association with MHRI – I publically condemn them, I publically call bullshit. You want to do some good? You want to advance Men’s Human Rights in Ireland?

        Clean up your fucking act!

        You want Men’s Human Rights abuses to be taken seriously, not just at a social and cultural level but at a political level, both in Ireland and in the wider world?

        Clean up your fucking act!”

        then you say to me “By the way Daniel, you are getting one more shot – to – take one more shot – then you can fuck off – and spew your vitriol, spite and malice on your own bloody facebook page – as I am absolutely sure you will.”

        You are deluded and completely lacking in self awareness…. you bitch about MHRI on your feed then try and make out I am the sort of character who will do the same and critisize me for it! That is utter blind hypocrisy!

        Daniel – take a deep breath – then go look at some of stuff you have posted – otherwise – you’ll give yourself a coronary. anyway – you got your shot – even though I’m not 100% sure who or what you are obviously incensed about – off you go now.

        Regards

        Anne

  4. Slanty
    Apr 29, 2014 @ 13:48:52

    Response from a member of MHRI

    Hello Anne, we were contaced yesterday with news about your upcoming article. I’ve read it and have responded to your assumptions below.

    Opinions – you know those things that everybody is entitled to?

    Firstly and most importantly SOS is critical of suicide prevention agencies not for what they do, but what they don’t do.

    Suicide prevention services are in the business of saving lives – they generally don’t get to interact with people until those people are in crisis – and most suicide prevention services operate with dedicated volunteers working for nothing, for one reason and one reason only – to be a voice either at the end of a phone for ANY human being in such distress and such pain that what they are dealing with on an ONGOING basis are crisis.

    After the initial crisis is passed they work in CONFIDENTIAL counselling sessions with extremely vulnerable, extremely distressed people – some of whom in that context can barely articulate their pain – at least not until maybe two or three sessions – I have had counselling sessions where I could only manage a few words – a few inarticulate words.

    So – what is it YOU from your lofty perch think that these people SHOULD BE DOING, that they are not aleady doing?

    There doesn’t appear to be any research into the effects of events such as divorce and domestic violence directed against men, by any suicide prevention agencies. Given that suicide rates increase sharply during these events as evidenced by research in other countries, it would perhaps be a good idea for suicide prevention agencies to look into them and offer proactive counselling for those most at risk, among other measures.

    Nowhere in their research or policies can be found any indication that they intend to address these issues either.

    Are you a qualified psychologist Ronan? Have you any experience at all of working with people with suicidal ideation? Any “research” conducted would have to incorporate the CONFIDENTAL content of counselling sessions – because that is where the reasons why a person IS suicidal or contemplating suicidal are revealed – and unless those clients give their permission then – no – you cannot use this information as the basis of “research” yes suicidal prevention agencies and services do surveys – and invite people to participate in mostly questionnaires – but – men especially, are reluctant to participate – part of the current ongoing campaigns being run by not just Pieta House but several others as well, are to address this reluctance on the part of men to publically reveal their pain – one of the features of male suicidal ideation is that they feel “shame” at being what they perceive as “weak or unmanly” – it is a chicken and egg situation – or are you suggesting that men be forced to “share their experiences” so that they can comply with what YOU believe or feel is the way they should be doing it?

    These are cultural and social issues that operate outside the provenance and parameters of SUICIDE prevention services – and as I said what goes on in counselling sessions is CONFIDENTIAL.

    As for the mind our men campaign, while it clearly is a positive and welcome step one must ask why it took them seven years to recognise the gender specific issues related to suicide given that male to female suicides have been ticking up from 4:1 to 5:1 over the last 20 years, and even today clicking on the informational video on the home page and every page of their mind our men site brings up a broken link.

    Perhaps they are not aware the link is broken, or perhaps there is a another reason – and it is disingenuous to cite the rising figures over the last 20 years without putting how the issue of suicide as a whole was perceived in a cultural context – in Ireland – there are many factors, many complex, social cultural and political factors which have informed how Irish “issues” are or have been dealt with – feminism is, in the context of Ireland just one – it would be great if one could point the finger at feminism and say – THAT is the cause of all our problems – THAT and nothing else – but that is simply not true.

    Suicide is and was in Ireland a cultural and social taboo – for many many years – I believe Max Weber wrote on this subject a long time ago – most suicides were classified as “accidental death” – religion played a big part in this subterfuge – because suicides couldn’t be buried in “holy ground” – the issue is more complex and multifaceted than just simply blaming feminism.

    The Mind Our Men campaign recognises that men don’t and won’t seek help – ergo it aims to inform those around these men to watch out for, and recognise the signs – THAT is the first step – does it really matter that it took however many years – do you know when most people realise that their son or brother or friend or nephew was thinking of taking his own life?

    When they find the body.

    Indeed, that’s why the Mind Our Men campaign wasn’t mentioned yet, we had intended to contact Pieta House and inform them that suicidal men coming to their site and clicking on their video only to find it broken aren’t really getting the right message, but there was some discussion as how best to approach them given that we feel they need to apply themselves to the challenge differently.

    But you didn’t contact them did you? And again I ask you are you or any member of MHRI a qualified psychologist, do any of you have any qualifications at all in the area of suicide prevention or depression or emotional disorders? Or do you all believe that applying an ideological agenda to a psychological problem is the correct approach?

    So because of a “broken video link” you decided that posting the phone numbers and addresses of not just ALL the Pieta House Centres or ANY suicide helpline at all, was what? Not in the best interests of the agenda of MHRI? Didn’t quite fit with the “there’s no hope” “nobody cares” “no-one wants to listen message”?

    Do you really think that men or anyone who goes looking for anyone to talk to – for any information or help really gives a shit that MHRI decided NOT to mention a ray of hope because of a “broken video link” or could be arsed “reading the latest government statistics”

    But I get it – because MHRI takes the position that “we feel they need to apply themselves to the challenge differently.” They won’t be posting any links, any helpline numbers, and information about ANY service in the business of saving lives – of helping and supporting human beings in crisis until I presume THAT service “gets it act together” in line with the agenda laid out by MHRI.

    Tell you what Ronan, when myself and other members of Men’s Rights Ireland are taking part in the Darkness into Light campaign on the 10th May 2014 – here in Ireland to raise awareness and much needed funding for the continuing provision of these “less than adequate” in your opinion, suicide prevention services and Helplines, shall I mention that MHRI “disapproves” and that “they’re not doing it right” and they should really consult MHRI – all those qualified psychologists, counsellors and psycho-therapists that comprise the “loose group” as you called it of MHRI?

    Or do you think you and your “loose group” might feel the urge to get off your lofty all-knowing rhetorical perch – and deign to participate – lower yourselves to add YOUR efforts to people who ARE and have actually been doing something?

    Providing sicide prevention services, Helplines, counselling, drop in centres – ALL over this country. Training people to man those phoneline, running courses and awareness programmes.

    They’ve begun to recognise the strength of public feeling on the matter but there is a great deal more they could do qualitatively. A linked article about the Scottish solution on the SOS page goes into some further ideas in greater depth

    .
    They? Who are “they”? Well as you’ve already stated that you DIDN’T contact Pieta House because of “a broken video link” so, how do you know what they do or don’t recognise? Or are you just “making assumptions”

    Your assertion that no credit is given to support agencies is also false, as the section at the top of the home page indicates: “Suicide counselling is a valid, proven and very valuable approach”. This is repeated on the main SOS page: “The focus for the most part has been on counselling men after they reach the point of feeling suicidal, treating the symptoms rather than the cause of the problem. It’s a valid and effective approach for men who have been pushed that far”.

    Semantics – ideological semantics – “the cause of the problem” let me guess in your opinion the cause is singular and simplistic – and for suicide prevention services the solution is? NOT to counsel, and focus on THAT, which is what THEY are qualified to do – but to join with MHRI in condemning feminism – to launch a rhetorical and ideological battle against feminism and give up the counselling? Give up the 24 hour Helplines?

    Which part of suicide is a crisis situation – the first indication that most people have that their loved is contemplating suicide is when they find the body are you not getting? – the Mind Our Men campaign aims to educate those loved ones to learn and recognise the signs and take action – what you are doing here is playing semantics – playing rhetorical word games – all around the issue of a human being taking their own life – with an underlying self righteous – holier than thou – let’s make this about the ideological rhetoric – about the MHRM v the feminists – let’s make this about – “unless you do your work within the parameters of what WE say is the correct ideological approach then – you’re doing it wrong”.

    Your assertion that you “took us to task” and “the site changed overnight” is false. Nobody here actually reads your blog, We had to work pretty hard to find the comment where you mentioned and disavowed us just now in fact. The article was uploaded three days after we had a flower day in Dublin, and all research was conducted independently at that time.

    Whatever – your first article was when – what 3 or 4 months ago – thank you – I am actually glad that you don’t read my blog. Couldn’t be bothered going and getting first your original article and then the edited one that appeared about two days later.

    Your assertion that John leads the group is false. The group is loosely organised and more or less a bunch of people doing what they think is best. Sometimes we do the same thing together, sometimes someone has an idea and runs with it.

    Well so far all I see is John Gormley, you all – whoever you are appear to be anonymous – though of course if that is how you all wish to operate for whatever reason then you are perfectly entitled to. As I did actually mention not so long ago when I redacted your name and another persons name from a comment posted by Daniel Murray – then I saw he had posted your names on his facebook page so a wasted effort.

    Your insinuation that the campaign is solely critical of Pieta House is false. Clear reference is made to government indifference to these decades old statistics.

    Excellent – that’s what I wanted to talk about with my counsellor – statistics that’s the FIRST thing people – especially men, want to see when they go looking for help – ANY help, when they have reached that point where they just cannot face another day – statistics – and a “bunch of people” a “loose group” with no qualifications in the area of suicide prevention pontificating about – statistics – and naturally of course they will completely understand why MHRI couldn’t possibly put up a link or a phone number to a service with many centres all around the country because – OH my God – they have “a broken video link”.

    Your assertion that we’re “flying in to take all the credit” is false. We’re highlighting what we see as shortcomings in how gendered suicide issues are addressed in Ireland, and others have noted as much.

    Suicide isn’t a “gendered issue” it is a Human tragedy – human beings lie dead at their own hands – yes more men than women successfully take their own live – but does it matter whether the person is male or female when they are dead?

    The causes (plural) and factors (plural) that lead a human being to take their own lives are informed by a social and culture climate that has been hugely influenced by a feminist mindset – but NOT everybody is a feminist – some people are just arseholes for OTHER reasons.

    “Others” who the hell are “others” how very nice of you all to focus on the “shortcomings” in your illustrious opinion and completely FAIL to mention one single positive hopeful thing – how very noble of you to use suicide to “make a point” how very humanitarian of you to disdain the provision of suicide services and refuse to provide a link to them because of a “broken video link” I guess then that a man who went looking for some hope, some help, something on MHRI would just have to accept that MHRI is above all that – but here’s some nice statistic’s for you to read – enjoy.

    Mike Buchanan has politely suggested that we add contact details for Pieta House to the SOS campaign, which we will do, and we will add details about the Mind Our Men campaign after they’ve fixed their broken video. We’re quite open to suggestions for improvement.

    “after they fix their broken video”? I rest my case – here’s a suggestion – disband – until you learn some humanity – until you get your priorities right – until you don’t think using the issue of suicide is a really really cool PR tool – “after they fix their broken video”!!!!!

    MHRI will NOT provide contact details for a national suicide prevention service until they sort out some minor tech problem on their site. Nor will they “add details about the Mind Our Men campaign” for the same reason – a campaign that specifically addresses the issue of male suicide – which an allegedly Men’s rights site WONT post details about – because of a “broken video link”.

    I know I’ve repeated that a number of times – I actually had to read it a number of times before I could get my head around it – the only words that come to my mind are – THAT is the most cold blooded and cynical statement I’ve ever read – MHRI wont link to a National and highly respected AND supported suicide prevention service or their Mind Our Men campaign specifically addressing the issue of male suicide because of a “broken video link

    I had no problem posting the phone numbers and addresses of all Pieta Houses centres – spread all over this country – nor any other suicide prevention service – broken video link or not.

    It would be appreciated if you read and understand what is actually being said before flying off the handle. If you had felt there were some issues with the campaign there are a surplus of channels through which to contact us.

    I did contact you – more than 24 hours before I posted the article. Your comment came a couple of hours ago – long after I informed you I was posting it, I didnt have to contact you nor do I need yours or anyone else’ pernmission before “flying off the handle” and you were forwarded you a copy – a “heads up”

    Right I’ve deleted the rest of your really really long comment because it descends into pettiness and makes some PROVABLY FALSE statements – which if I addressed them would only make you look like a bigger pompous idiot than you do now. In my opinion.

    I have no doubt though that you will post it in full on your website – so the only comment I will make is this.

    I resigned from MHRI – for a multitude of very valid reasons – Ronan’s contention that I “was removed” is false and provable so – as are many of the other false allegations he makes in the rest of this really really long email, also PROVABLY false.

    That is all. Thank you for your comment and best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

    In the interests of fairness I went onto the Mind Our Men web site: http://www.mindourmen.ie/

    Here are the links to:

    About Mind Our Men http://www.mindourmen.ie/about/ works just fine.
    Mind Our Men Support Document http://www.mindourmen.ie/files/MOMSupportdoc.pdf works just fine.
    Mind Our Men Information Document http://www.mindourmen.ie/files/MOMInfodoc.pdf works just fine

    But you are correct – the video link is “broken” or it has been taken down, has it not occurred to you that they might be actually preparing a NEW video?

    Regards

    Anne

    Reply

  5. alcockell
    Apr 30, 2014 @ 09:53:44

    To be fair- is this a blue-on-blue incident? Friendly fire?
    Fog of war and all that?

    Reply

    • anjaeriud
      Apr 30, 2014 @ 13:29:38

      No.

      This is a “In Ireland there ARE no simple answers” kind of thing – nor for that matter are there “simple questions”

      On the surface it might appear that one can say – “THAT is the problem – THAT is the answer” but that in and of itself would be wrong.

      Until recently, historically speaking that is, Ireland was literally adrift from the rest of the “Western world” xenophobic doesn’t even cover it – there was a deliberate policy in place to “keep any and all non-Irish influences OUT”

      While the rest of the world embraced “progress” Ireland vehemently and deliberately rejected it.

      There are and always have been more than just one Ireland – the Ireland that “visitors” see or that we have and to some extent still do display to the world is a fabrication – a Myth – it is our “public face” it is the Ireland of “great craic” of “friendly and welcoming” of “strangeness and quirkiness” and to be fair it isn’t ALL a fabrication, there is a element of truth in that – but there is also a darker side.

      But there are and have been other Irelands – darker, more malign, stagnant and cruel – it is those or that Ireland that has informed our history – that has been the force that dictated the path we took.

      With regard to how and when we started to allow external influences to impact upon the development of and inform the progress of where we are today – no matter what it was or is – it is and always has been, filtered through several layers of cultural and historical influences that simply do NOT, and never have existed or impacted on any other “Western” country in the world.

      NONE of them.

      That’s why I say and repeat – imposing either an American, or UK model of “men’s rights activism” IN Ireland will NOT work – American and UK feminism has its own particular cultural and social history that informed and does inform ITS brand of feminism – the way feminism developed and evolved in those cultures – the US and the UK have completely different political, social and cultural roots, for want of a better phrase that gave rise to and influenced its history.

      In both those States and in Canada and Australia as well – Religion was and is separate from the State – in Ireland Religion WAS the State.

      To disregard or ignore or fail to incorporate that paradigm into the complex mix of the social, cultural and POLITICAL development of Ireland’s unique and sometimes frankly bizarre history is to try and address only part of the “problem”
      As I said in my post “An Irish solution to an Irish Problem” “feminism isn’t our problem, our history is our problem – feminism is a factor”

      All States, all countries are the sum of their histories, on a social and cultural level – and on a political level – ALL countries.

      Any idiot with access to the internet or a library (maybe) could recite the history of feminism in any particular country or State – but feminism doesn’t and hasn’t existed in a vacuum – nor did it arise in a vacuum – and excuse my bluntness – but both the feminist movement and the MHRM are guilty of making the exact same mistake – ignoring the cultural, social and historical contexts within which feminism took root in individual countries and States – feminism is a hydra – it has and does adapt itself to suit the “conditions on the ground”

      While feminism is and has become a global influence – until the advent of massive technological and political changes – globalisation – feminism had to a certain extent in some States and countries a less powerful influence than it does now – was gynocentrism and hypergamy always part of the mix? Of course it was.

      Many much younger MRA’s might find this hard to believe – but during the mid 1990’s feminism was in the doldrums – yes at that point the UN and the WHO were infested with feminists and feminism but in the wider world – in peoples lives – you’d have been hard pushed to find the kind of toxic little wretches blogging and spewing out the kind of unutterable shoite that they do now.

      Except perhaps in the US and the UK and Canada – in Ireland – nope – every now and again some dozy twat would appear on TV spouting about “women’s rights” but we had bigger problems – huge problems – and no bloody money to be “funding” “Women’s programmes”.

      Apart from all that – there is one feature of Ireland that is unique among almost all Western States and countries – our massive immigration figures – an example – before the Great Famine in 1848 – 1852 – the population of Ireland was approaching 8 million.

      Afterwards it had sunk to about 3.5 million – it wasn’t until the Census of 2006 that the population of Ireland reached just over 4 million – a period of 154 years – and it wasn’t like we weren’t actually producing babies – the average number of children that an Irish woman had between 1937 ish and 1972 ish was five (5) – we exported huge numbers of our people – all over the world.

      Then something very strange happened – in the late 1990’s – people began “coming back” all of a sudden people were “moving TO Ireland” and how did we react – with panic – with changing our Constitution – our bloody constitution to make it extremely difficult for “non-nationals” to acquire Irish citizenship – we “reverted to form” and tried to keep “external influences OUT” one of those external influences that did struggle a bit to gain a foothold in Ireland WAS feminism.

      So, there are many complex factors that go into understanding the influence of feminism in Ireland – and of addressing social, political and cultural problems – simply blaming feminism as “the cause” is patently ridiculous.

      Reply

      • alcockell
        Apr 30, 2014 @ 16:30:19

        Points taken. Sorry – Was thinking in the larger gender war that is still going on, there was one men’s group firing on another men’s group.

        Apologies if offence caused..

      • anjaeriud
        Apr 30, 2014 @ 17:17:11

        Hi Al

        First let me say this – absolutely no need to apologise – no offence taken at all – you asked a perfectly valid question – and I thought it deserved a comprehensive answer.

        On the basis that I should make my “stance” so to speak clearer.

        With regard to what you characterised as a “Gender War – two things – first I absolutely loathe with a passion that stupid word “Gender” and secondly – in my opinion – this isn’t a war – a battle between two opposing forces – there was no war – there was a coup – a takeover.

        Whether or not men themselves are prepared to accept or believe this – men were to an extent complicit in facilitating this coup – due to the overlying cultural and social context within which the “women’s lib” movement launched itself upon the world.

        Had men not done this – and no I don’t actually blame them completely – they were hoodwinked to a large extent – and had been for centuries – but if they hadn’t – the “womens lib” movement would have fizzled out and become another bizarre and curious artefact from the “swinging sixties”

        But there was an underlying agenda operating in the shadows of this “womens lib” movement – a political agenda – Marxism. Not the right timne to go into that here.

        With regard to “firing on” mens groups – I didn’t – I – an individual – “fired on “ a false perception being peddled about a specific subject – a sensitive and painful subject – as – in my opinion – a slick PR stunt to further an agenda – the fact that false perception was being peddled by a “mens group” is – and again in my opinion – irrelevant.

        I was “advised” that posting my article “would harm the image of the MHRM – or words to that effect – it was also implied to me that I would find myself “on the wrong side”

        The wrong side?

        A strange choice was being laid before me – a challenge if you will – to choose which “side” I wanted to be on?

        Which side? Ah yes – either on the “side” of the MHRM or on the “side” of whatever WASN’T – again on the basis that “you are either for us or against us” ie – an enemy.

        There have been many movements who have operated that policy – a policy of “the movement is the cause, therefore one does not criticise or say negative things about anyone or anything connected to that movement” it is the in fact the underlying policy of the feminist movement – and any who dares to breach those policy guidelines is eviscerated.

        Well – I’m only on one side – it isn’t a movement or a group or an organisation or a person – I am on the side of humanity – do I care what sort of human being that is? Nope. What colour, sex, creed or belief that human is, or holds? Nope couldn’t give a rat’s arse.

        THAT’S whose “side” I am on – and if anybody doesn’t like that – they can fuck off.

        I only have one overriding belief system – I believe in the sanctity of Human Rights – and the only qualification to be vested with Human Rights? Is to be a Human Being.

        You may believe or not believe what you want – that is your right – you may believe things that I personally find bizarre or ridiculous or just downright wrong – but that is not who you are – what you ARE is a Human Being.

        You could be the nicest kindest Human Being on the planet – and be either a feminist or an MHRA – or alternatively – you could be a complete arsehole or twat – your LABEL – the one you either attach to yourself or claim for yourself does NOT absolve you or preclude you from being – as a Human Being – a complete arsehole or twat.

        Right now on this planet – men’s Human Rights – under the influence of a toxic doctrine, a vile hate filled creed – peddled by some vile hate filled human beings who call themselves feminists – are being trampled underfoot, are being discarded, excised from the statute books – that IS the reality – and that is why I do what I do.

        That is why I can say – feminists are Human Beings – some of them are extremely nasty Human Beings – but Human Beings they are – and FEMINISM – is the a set of toxic beliefs and doctrines held by some Human Beings.

        I actually have a grudging respect for some feminists – I think they are deluded – completely wrong in what they base their beliefs on – but – some of the work they have done is – not half bad. For feminists.

        Alright I’ll mention them – Christina Hoff Sommers, Camille Paglia, Wendy McElroy, they have at one point or another produced some worthwhile work, though Camille is an acquired taste, but funny as hell.

      • alcockell
        Apr 30, 2014 @ 17:40:32

        S’pose I was thinking of the POPOV/Matty Hull friendly fire incident or when Tom Cruise fired on his own oppo in Born on 4th of July… using NATO terns…

      • alcockell
        Apr 30, 2014 @ 17:41:25

        And thank you for what you do.

        I suppose – having been a battleground over this – I’m WIA…

      • alcockell
        Apr 30, 2014 @ 17:43:18

        I suppose it was both AVFM and you being on the side of humanity, the Orange lot being the Cultural Marxist gynocentrists…

        Blue and Orange are the colours used in NATO exercises…

      • anjaeriud
        Apr 30, 2014 @ 18:10:21

        A Tesco answer Al – three for the price of one 

        S’pose I was thinking of the POPOV/Matty Hull friendly fire incident or when Tom Cruise fired on his own oppo in Born on 4th of July… using NATO terns…

        An interesting analogy Al – and there have been many such incidents – its not exactly the same thing – but this reminds of a film Bruce Willis was in – he was POW in a nazi concentration camp and was ordered to act as the defence lawyer for another prisoner – a prisoner to the best of my recollection who was a “pariah” though maybe the accused could have been a guard – not sure.

        The point I’m making rather laboriously is this – Human Beings find themselves in all sorts of situations where their “allegiances’” are tested – and it is nearly always a conflict between allegiance to a group or a organisation or a movement versus allegiance to principles – the hardest and most challenging thing for any human being to do is make that choice – unless they have – sat down with themselves and asked themselves “what do I believe in?” not who – not what group or organisation – but what are my core beliefs? What are my principles?

        The next challenge of course is to live by those principles – as flawed and imperfect human beings we tend to fuck up – big time – over and over again – I know I do.

        Sorry about the Bruce Willis “thing” what can I say – Bruce is……………….well he is – isn’t he?

        And thank you for what you do.

        Not really doing anything Al – that hundreds of other people aren’t doing – probably while coping with their own struggles and problems – I can almost guarantee that those MHRA’s who speak with most passion and conviction about these issues – have at some stage – faced their own dark night of the soul.

        I suppose – having been a battleground over this – I’m WIA…

        And you’re still here Al – and I for one am glad – those wounds? Badges of honour my friend – hard won.

        I suppose it was both AVFM and you being on the side of humanity, the Orange lot being the Cultural Marxist gynocentrists…

        Yep – I especially love Robert St Estephe when he writes about this – his clarity of thought and incisive analysis is sublime – a true philosopher – one of my personal modern “favourites” along with I have to say Typhonblue – Alison Tieman

        Blue and Orange are the colours used in NATO exercises…

        Oh lets not go down that road Al – Nato “exercises” hmmmmmm. Another time? 🙂

      • alcockell
        Apr 30, 2014 @ 21:35:30

        I was simply thinking of the operational terms used.

        Just causes the tears to well up re all the unnecessary damage inflicted. Why did this have to happen at all?

      • anjaeriud
        Apr 30, 2014 @ 22:37:11

        Because suicide in Ireland, especially male suicide has more complex and multifaceted reasons than just being another feminist plot – hard though this may to believe or accept everything in Ireland that could be described as a social, cultural or political issue ISN’T about feminism.

        Every issue doesn’t have feminism as its root cause – none more so than suicide – because while it might be a handy and emotive weapon to beat feminism over the head with – in relation to “the numbers” the issue of suicide isn’t and shouldn’t be a “battle of the statistics”

        It is the ultimate victim Olympics – in the feminism v the MHRM. Which side can produce the mnost “victims” a pissing contest over the dead bodies of Human Beings.

        In my opinion – both the feminists and the MHRM are as bad as one another when it comes to THIS issue.

        I know that as I have just been informed many within the MHRN are “dismayed” at the article I posted and also apparently I have lost “supporters” does that somehow mean that the validity of the single core priciple of Mens Rights activism is a lost cause? Mens Rights are Human Rights?

        Well, people can support or not support me or anything I do – that is their choice – but I’m not asking for “supporters” have you or anyone else ever seen me post “please support me”? NO.

        DON’T support me – I am serious – DON’T base your belief in the validity of the message Mens Rights are Human Rights on me or any person – on an individual or a group or a movement – base it on the fact that this is a fundamental Universal concept – on the veracity and truth of the statement – Mens Rights are Human Rights

        I owe NO allegiance to ANY movement – I will NOT be threatened with ostracism – as if being “given the cold shoulder” or “sent to Coventry” will force me back into line nor will I have people demand that I comply with ANY agenda in order not to damage the image of that movement – or group or organisation.

        I post here as an individual – as a single human being with only ONE agenda – one belief – in the sanctity of Human Rights for all Human Beings.

        If the principles of ANY movement are so fragile, so weak, so shaky that criticism of any person or group or individual within that movement would cause that movement to crumble into dust – then in my opinion – and it is MY opinion – there is some serious flaw with those principles.

        I don’t live my life abiding by the tenets of a “movement” or a “group image that needs to be protected – I live my life as best I can abiding by principles – by a code of ethics that transcend the operation of and mechanisms of ANY group, ANY “MOVEMENT.

        The message of this blog is simple – its rights up there at the top of the page;

        Men’s Rights are Human Rights – THATS what I believe in – NOT as part of a movement, of a group or a collection of groups – but as an individual Human Being.

        “Naked shalt thou enter this life and naked shalt thou leave it”

        The only person I have to answer to is ME – I do what I do as one person – one individual – if anyone doesn’t like that – fine – you are entitled to your opinion – then don’t read – I started blogging with no expectation that anyone would read anything I wrote – I still don’t expect anyone to read it – and I sure as hell won’t be told what I can or cannot post – what or who I can or cannot have an opinion about or who I do or don’t owe my allegiance too.

        Not by feminists, not by MHRA’s – I stand by every single word I wrote – every word, and I will not retract one single one.
        I gave the spokesperson, I presume of MHRI the right to reply and I responded – that has as far as I am concerned fulfilled my only obligation to them or him or whoever is MHRI.

        I sent them a copy of the article I intended to post 24 hours before I posted it – which I was NOT under any obligation to do – they did not respond.

        If those who believe that this will damage the MHRM truly believe that – then in my opinion – the MHRM is a cult of personalities and factions and group think – not a force based on sound principles – if the only concern is that “feminists will attack the MHRM”- then how is that different from what they are doing already – feminists hide and shield THEIR less than savoury characters – refuse to condemn any one of their members who has peddled false information or created false perceptions or lied by omission or commission, and the MHRN condemns then for it – and rightly so.

        Is that now somehow acceptable because the MHRM is operating that exact same policy – critics the group and the group will hunt you down – eviscerate you – turn on you – give you the cold shoulder?

        Sorry – but I want no part of a movement that operates a “we close ranks and protect the group, protect the movement at all costs” policy.

        I believe in the sanctity of Human Rights – for all Human Beings – I believe that Men’s Rights are Human Rights.

        I DON’T need the approval or permission of ANY movement or group to do that – and I sure as hell don’t need to be told to bite my tongue or the “movement” will push you out into the cold – or the movement will be damaged – and I most certainly will not edit or compromise my own personal principles in favour of “group think”

        Men’s Rights are Human Rights – that is what I believe, that is what I will, to the best of my ability advocate for – that is what I will do.

        I will do it as truthfully as I can – with integrity and I hope with honour – and where I personally see that being done otherwise I will speak up.

        Whether the “group” or “the movement” likes it or not.

        There of course many many honourable and committed and dedicated persons within the wider MHRM – and as far as I can see they do what THEY do because they believe in the core message that Mens Rights are Human Rights,from my perpective that is all I need to know about them – NOT which group or movement they belong to or claim – not what label they do or dont attach to themselves – just that they believe and advocate on behalf of the Human Rights of Men and Boys with truth, with integrity, with honour.

      • alcockell
        Apr 30, 2014 @ 22:57:32

        No probs at all. I don’t speak as an activist at all.. Been there as a casualty but more holed up and chronicling on mgtow and other areas as I can. Seems as though some of my comments might be a Canticle for Leibowitz…

        I don’t do this identity politics shit, part of me as an aspie to avoid that type of infighting. We have bigger fish to fry.

        Could ppl be still generally flailing as different pockets of resistance to the Orwellian nightmare of the feminist disaster?

      • anjaeriud
        May 01, 2014 @ 01:05:55

        No probs at all. I don’t speak as an activist at all.. Been there as a casualty but more holed up and chronicling on mgtow and other areas as I can. Seems as though some of my comments might be a Canticle for Leibowitz… i

        That’s the thing isn’t it? Labels – and the power of labels and identity – and to some extent “group think” you’re either in or you’re out – you’re with us or against us – and it’s the tyranny of that ”us” the coercive power of the “them and us” paradigm – feminists love their labels – and now it appears that some “members” of this entity known as the MHRM are following suit – protect the label, and those who wear it.

        Then of course there is the meta message that ALL labels carry – that underlying value judgement that attaches to those labels. If you wear the right label you’re in – and you abide by some set of arbitrary rules predicated upon protecting the label – if you don’t – you’re out.

        Before you know it – all the power is vested in the label – all the focus is on the label – and protecting the label – the person or persons who wear that “right label”

        What does “a Canticle for Leibowitz” mean?

        I don’t do this identity politics shit, part of me as an aspie to avoid that type of infighting. We have bigger fish to fry.

        Funny I just said recently that I’ve always been a bit sceptical of mass social movements – there is a very thin line between a movement and a mob – and that line always gets breached when the mass gathers more mass. Especially if the movement becomes large enough to start coalescing and becoming more substantive – principles get lost in the rush to structuralise the movement –when the movement starts building a framework of “norms”

        I agree re the “Bigger fish to fry” in the sense that the issues are about more than petty battles over statistics – though these are the framework upon which to form coherent arguments against the current narrative of feminism which tries to build a smokescreen of ever more petty grievances’ to obscure the real core issues – Human Rights.

        Part of the problem within both amorphous “social” movements –feminism and the MHRM and in different ways is that neither “side” will acknowledge the fundamental truths that feminists are human beings and MHRA’s are human beings – with both sides more or less claiming to be the better human beings.

        Actually neither is true – what you believe is different – and from my perspective with regard to feminists total and utter rubbish – toxic rubbish – but – as a human being you can believe whatever claptrap you like – where you are going wrong is demanding that the whole world believes what you do.

        I also believe it is a waste of time trying to change feminists minds – let them believe what they believe – decide what the core principles are – Universal Human Rights – evaluate each and every policy and programme or whatever through that prism and then advocate on the basis that this or that policy or law or programme or whatever violates those Universal Human Rights principles.

        The message is – Men’s Rights are Human Rights – the ONLY counter argument to that is to prove that men are not human beings.

        Human Rights are immutable – they rest on only one keystone – they are vested in human beings. All human beings. Even feminists.

        Arguments or rhetoric who’s sole suppose is to take pot shots at feminists or feminism are redundant – they might make you feel that you just delivered the fatal blow to an enemy – but how has that advanced the cause of establishing the Universal Human Rights paradigm as the default framework under which all human beings live by one single solitary inch?

        The arguments have been made, more or less, at least those that have disproved the fundamental flaws in feminism – the next stage is to advance those arguments beyond just taking pot shots at feminism – and start emphasising the Human Rights abuse issues.

        Now that those arguments have been made, how does recyling and repeating them over and over again change one single law – one single policy? Now it is time to carry that core message into the only place where it matters? The corridors of power – how many politicians do you know log onto the internet and read mens rights sites? How many government officials?

        You might be changing the minds to a certain extent of some people – but then what? Until you realise that these are not just people – these are voters – and if you want to change policies and laws – you are first going to have get that message out to “the people” which is and has been done to a certain extent – but then – you have to ask those people to “give you a mandate” so that you can implement the changes you say you want. You can really only do that by engaging in active political campaigns.

        And yep for what it’s worth I’ll be doing that in the next general election here in Ireland – no doubt the biggest criticisms of me personally will come from the MHRM, and they will be personal attacks – or at least certain “members” of it – of that I have no doubt – ironic doesn’t even cover it.

        Most likely it will reach a crescendo as the election approaches, and no doubt I will probably NOT get elected – and am sure that certain members of the “movement” will hold a party – and write articles and posts excoriating me – so be it – I’ll take my chances.

        And yep I am saying this now to give you all plenty of time for them to scour every single thing I’ve written, and will write in the future – tear it apart and pour scorn and vitriol all over it – plenty of notice for you all to launch your campaign or whatever – write your contemptuous articles and posts – and rip into me – for daring to criticise anyone in the MHRM – for daring to criticise a mens rights “group” and I know they will – because the MHRM and ALL its members are absolutely above criticism – absolutely protected from any criticism at all – no matter what they do – because “the movement” looks after its own. Or so I’ve been more or less informed.

        I find myself wondering then whenever anyone posts an article on any other men’s rights site – will a new policy be impletmented on THAT site – that because this is by another MHRA – NO criticism at all will be allowed – any negative comments, or comments that dispute the substance of that article will be immediately deleted and removed – because MHRA’s are forbidden from criticising one another – well – thats what I’ve been led to believe is now the standard operating policy of the MHRM.

        Could ppl be still generally flailing as different pockets of resistance to the Orwellian nightmare of the feminist disaster?

        Maybe – but it could be that people are using the same tools they always have to engage in mass social movements – agitate – advocate – coalesce – structuralise – and create a framework of group norms that become more important than the principles upon which you started to agitate in the first place – pick your enemy – personalise your enemy, and ground every argument, every polemic around showing your enemy in the worst possible light.

        Use the most emotive language and emotive topic to demonise your enemy with, then stand back and wait for everybody to start hating your enemy as much as you do.

        Use that highly emotive language in a calculated way to shock and cause outrage – and ignore any factor that does not fit into the agenda you have set for yourself – demonising the enemy – it’s the “end justifies the means “ tactic – while it might work in the short term – in the long term it becomes a habit – it becomes acceptable – it becomes “the norm” then you have become just as bad as that which you are claiming to be fighting against.

        Because you are not fighting for principles anymore, for Universal Human Rights – you are engaged in destroying your enemy – if you fight your battle from in the basis of principles – the you have no need to destroy your enemy – your enemy simply ceases to hold any power.

        You have neutralised them.

      • alcockell
        May 01, 2014 @ 01:36:47

        Anja, no fight on my part. Canticle was an sf novel set in a post apocalyptic earth where civilization was recreated partially from a shopping list etc. I was referring to where the red pill community is trying to recreate family etc.. All part of the pre-reconstruction period/process.

        Just struck me that one reason why the coup was so successful was the Orwellian nature of feminist doublethink etc.

  6. chefyc
    May 01, 2014 @ 08:53:44

    Reply

  7. wtfwtf13
    May 02, 2014 @ 09:55:55

    I post here as an individual – as a single human being with only ONE agenda – one belief – in the sanctity of Human Rights for all Human Beings.

    A very apt description ! I don’t doubt your sincerity.In this age where people think in terms tribes,communities,gangs,race,movements,’isms’ etc.,any person who thinks of himself primarily as an INDIVIDUAL and is proactive as one is a maverick.
    Mavericks have never ever had it easy any time in human history.
    But they are the vital catalysts for social change in particular though their contributions may not always be apparent.
    So keep up the good fight.

    Reply

    • anjaeriud
      May 02, 2014 @ 21:49:43

      A very apt description ! I don’t doubt your sincerity.In this age where people think in terms tribes,communities,gangs,race,movements,’isms’ etc.,any person who thinks of himself primarily as an INDIVIDUAL and is proactive as one is a maverick.

      Thank you WTF – appreciate your comment.

      I am a Human Rights advocate – thats it – right now – men’s Human Rights are under attack, and at the risk of pissing off MHRA/MRA’s I will say this.

      My allegiance is to principles – Universal Human Rights – and Men’s Rights are Human Rights.

      Not “movements” not “personalities” not to labels.

      If a female came to me with a legitimate cause of action on a Human Rights issue – I would act for her – if it subsequently turned out she was a feminist – I would still act for her.

      For one simple reason – I don’t care what unutterable crap you believe or what rubbish you think is true or not – if you as a Human Being have a legitimate Human Rights cause of action – then that is what matters – what you believe in is feminism – what you are is a Human Being.

      One of my favourite films is A Few Good Men – in the final scene when Daniel Caffey gets Nathan Jessup to admit he ordered the Code Red – protocol kicked in – the law kicked in – justice kicked in.

      Proceedings were immediately suspended and the prosecutor stated – “The witness has rights – please advise the witness of his rights”

      Nathan Jessup was an arsehole – and had just admitted to a breach of law – but – “the witness has rights”

      Even the most vile arsehole or twat has rights – and is entitled to the full protection of the law – and the right to mount a defence.

      THAT’S justice – acknowledging the Rights of arseholes.

      Right now feminism is undermining and stripping away the very foundations of Justice – in order to deprive men of their rights – their Human Rights – that pisses me off – big time.

      Mavericks have never ever had it easy any time in human history.

      Well , I can’t really claim to be a maverick – just that I believe what I believe – no-one has to agree with me or believe the same thing – but – I am entitled to not just believe what I want to believe – but express those beliefs and/or opinions – and it’s not founded on allegiance to a “movement” or a “group” but on principles.

      But they are the vital catalysts for social change in particular though their contributions may not always be apparent.
      So keep up the good fight.

      Thank you again WTF – will do my best. :)

      Anne

      Reply

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